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Author Topic: General Questions  (Read 3366 times)

Ms T

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2017, 10:34:04 AM »
Hi Brino,

At the back of the latest update, was it intentional that a loss now results in losing more stars and gaining even less for a win?

Before, a loss would be at an average of minus 30-32 points, roughly the same, only the opposite with a win. It now seems as if the amount of points lost is more when losing a game. Even more should you quit a game, minus 40 points, REALLY?? All the while bots still have top level cards. The only reason to ever quit a game.

The amount of points earned on a win has been decreased to a standard 25?

If these particular changes were intentional, then they're quite silly to be honest.

Hey Ms T,

In the new version, the loss/gain of stars depends on how many stars your opponent has.
So, it's possible to lose more stars, but it's also possible to win more stars than before.
You can also win and lose less stars too.

We did find, however, that the points won/lost while playing against bots are being calculated incorrectly, and we've resolved that.

The bots have those cards because they aren't so intelligent and they need better cards so that they have a chance to win, however, we're working to improve the intelligence to be able to worsen their decks a bit.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

-Brino

Brino,

This cannot possibly be true. Since the beginning of the new season it seems almost impossible to improve ranking. Winning a match now results in earning something as ridiculous as 8-9 stars.

A loss however is consistently at minus 29 - 40 points.
To recover from one loss, you have to play a ridiculous amount of games just to break even.

Opponent cards are almost in line, if not better than mine when I do win, yet I'm scraping away with minimum points for winning games and maximum damage if losing.
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Surik

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2017, 03:45:49 PM »
Totally agree with Ms T.
New season is an absolute nightmare.

I first won 6 matches in a row gaining 50 stars in total (8-9 stars per win) and moving up from 3000 to 3050. Then I suffered one loss to a player with level 5 legendary cards and got punished with -39 stars.

It's ridiculous! Somehow the story about opponents strength doesn't sell. I'm not that strong (having at best level 2 legendary player) that shouldn't be entitled to more than 8-9 stars per win. During last season I managed to get at least 25 stars per win at best, now even 10 is out of the reach.

Surik

Surik

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2017, 03:15:57 PM »
Now when I have managed to get quickly down from 3050 level to 2900 by losing 4-5 games to bots.

Some simple questions that have come to my mind:
Why can't I ever receive the same amount of stars for win (34-40) that I'm getting for the loss, even for winning the bots
Why can't I ever receive the same amount of stars for loss (8-9 stars) that I'm getting for the win, even for losing by more than 7 goals to the bots?

If your aim is to get rid of the real players and make it a playground for the bots then it's obviously justified.
Otherwise you should have just skipped this season prizes renewal part.

Surik

Mahir56

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2017, 03:08:32 AM »
How the star system work ? I mean when ı win game it only give Me 8-9 star but when ı lost it takes 35-40 star its not fair

Mahir56

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2017, 03:17:57 AM »
And where do you know that you are playing with bot

THE WHITE MAMBA

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2017, 09:53:56 AM »
Now when I have managed to get quickly down from 3050 level to 2900 by losing 4-5 games to bots.

Some simple questions that have come to my mind:
Why can't I ever receive the same amount of stars for win (34-40) that I'm getting for the loss, even for winning the bots
Why can't I ever receive the same amount of stars for loss (8-9 stars) that I'm getting for the win, even for losing by more than 7 goals to the bots?

If your aim is to get rid of the real players and make it a playground for the bots then it's obviously justified.
Otherwise you should have just skipped this season prizes renewal part.

Surik

Hey there!

The loss/gain of stars depends on how many stars your opponent has. If you have more stars than your opponent, you get less points for winning and you lose more points for losing. In the other hand, if you win against an opponent with more stars, you will get more, and if you lose, you will lose less.

Standing at the top of the ranking is not an easy task, but if you want to prove that you are the best Top Stars player, you will have to prove it ;)

Good luck all!

Best regards,

Ms T

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2017, 12:32:54 PM »
The loss/gain of stars depends on how many stars your opponent has. If you have more stars than your opponent, you get less points for winning and you lose more points for losing. In the other hand, if you win against an opponent with more stars, you will get more, and if you lose, you will lose less.

Aha.

Though I think the problem we are all having with this is that we're constantly drawing bots as opponents.

I don't think anyone has an issue having to play hard to stay in the top or to play hard to get ther, but the disadvantage is quite obvious and the margin is actually quite sizeable.

These bots have cards mostly at maximum level, but do not even feature in the top 50. So by default, their cards are better, but they do not even feature on the ranking page and so because our ranking if I understand, is better, we lose more than we actually gain.

We're losing 40 points, but never winning 40.

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Surik

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2017, 07:54:01 PM »
Once again agree with Ms T.

As said by Ms T, the opponents / bots with maximum level of cards are not listed among top 50. When I last checked, only 23 players have reached Silver or better award level.

Currently I can enjoy only the slow pace of moving steadily downwards on stars. Winning 2 and losing 2 games, normally means  minus 40 stars. Struggling at the moment in 2750-2850 range.

Despite that I have managed to keep 500-550 position meaning that others have dropped hopefully faster :)
But that's also the only bright side of the game.

At the moment I just can't see how can I improve my deck in reasonable time if season awards are taken out of the reach and special offers are off the table as well (most probably due to the fact that these offers ended with division 1).

Surik
 

Surik

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2017, 07:08:31 AM »
Instead of whining all the time I suggest to build up the system not based on stars (or at least not based on stars only), but taking into account also the strength of the deck.
(One way would be for example the amount of bucks used for improving the deck in hand)

By doing that you appreciate also player's intelligence and strategy.
Besides why not to give/take stars for the draw.

Surik

Ms T

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2017, 10:58:07 AM »
I actually don't think they really care too much about how flawed the point system is now.

You're basicallly punished for having better points. The losses outweighs the gains, every single time. The end of season rewards are useless if it's almost out of reach. No one is asking for it to be easy, it just needs to be balanced better.

It sucks playing a bot, or a real player for that matter with cards improved to the maximum level and losing 40 points. The match isn't even a contest when you're opponent has max level cards. You can't win. That's fine. But then if and when we do beat someone with better cards, the points should be as much as what we lose when the situation is in reverse.

With the free boxes and whatever other add-ons there currently is in the game, we actually still  have to pay to win since you've introduced this new point system.


**Edit: Please. Have at it.
https://vimeo.com/229173756

Their line up:
Pogba - Level 5 - Max Improvement Level
Piqué - Level 8 - Max Improvement Level
Lewandowski - Level 5 - Max Improvement Level
James - Level 11  - Max Improvement Level
Kroos  - Level 8 - Max Improvement Level
Bale - Level 8 - Max Improvement Level
Benzemá - Level 8 - Max Improvement Level

Tackling - Level 11 - Max Improvement Level
Zone Defense - Level 8 - Max Improvement Level
Defensive Wall - Level 11 - Max Improvement Level
 

Played roughly 12 games to make up about 150 points. Lost four in a row against similar opposition as in the video, ±160 points gone.

Do you guys understand that THIS is the problem that we are having? It's not like we are paired against an opponent like this once or twice, it quite literally happens as you recover your losses only to be dragged down again. Prior to playing the game in the video, it took me 4 games just to make 35. One loss and that progress is gone. Throw in another two and you're even further down than to where you started since your first game.

Quote
Standing at the top of the ranking is not an easy task, but if you want to prove that you are the best Top Stars player, you will have to prove it

Pay to win.  :)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 09:20:25 PM by Ms T »
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ruloi

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2017, 07:56:18 AM »
Hello,

I'm one of the developers behind Top Stars. We are working on balancing the star system and bot decks. I'll try to explain what's in our mind so that you can have the general picture.

The main purpose of adding/removing stars depending on the star difference of the rival is to make the ranking fair. Top players shouldn't be there because they play more, but because they are better. If we just give 30 stars everytime you win, players at the top would probably be the ones that play the most (which is not that bad, but it's not what we really want). This should work out quite well, we haven't invented this ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system ), the problem comes when we add bots to the equation. Bots break this system because they don't care about losing stars, they don't really lose stars. We are working on balancing this and I believe that you should be losing 20-40 stars and wining 20-40, it's not like at the begining when you could lose 40+ and win 8.

About bot decks, we are also working on this. We want bots to win about 50% of the games, not less, not more. This way even if there are not enough players online on your star range, you can play and still have fun (because you are not wining or losing all the time). So we made a system that improves or worsens the bot's deck if he is not meeting the goal of 50% win/lose. Some players are wining against those "impossible" bot decks and are making them stronger, while some other players can't really beat them. Eventually you will face bots that you can beat and keep your progress up. Also note that bots are "stupid" and can lose even if their deck is twice better than it's opponent's.

I just want to add that we listen to you, and we are well aware that the system is far from perfect. We might go back to 30 stars win/loss and we will revisit the bot policy.

If you have any suggestions about what I just said or you just disagree, you are welcome to discuss it here. Also, thank you for playing Top Stars! :)

Ms T

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2017, 12:18:56 PM »
Hi ruloi

Thanks for coming to explain what you guys are trying to do from a devs perspective.

It seems pointless repeating the same issue so I will just say that I'm hoping that those changes you mentioned, or possible adjustments, would be happening sooner rather than later. It was a good game until the recent changes. Really hoping that it will become fun to play again soon.
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Brino

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #72 on: August 21, 2017, 11:23:54 AM »
Hey guys,
I'm back in the office so I'm here again to help with whatever questions, doubts or issues you may have in the game.
Let me know, and thanks - @ruloi - for checking in.
-Brino
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Surik

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #73 on: August 27, 2017, 07:54:11 AM »

The main purpose of adding/removing stars depending on the star difference of the rival is to make the ranking fair. Top players shouldn't be there because they play more, but because they are better. If we just give 30 stars everytime you win, players at the top would probably be the ones that play the most (which is not that bad, but it's not what we really want). This should work out quite well, we haven't invented this ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system ), the problem comes when we add bots to the equation. Bots break this system because they don't care about losing stars, they don't really lose stars. We are working on balancing this and I believe that you should be losing 20-40 stars and wining 20-40, it's not like at the begining when you could lose 40+ and win 8.


Elo rating system has K-factor that takes into account the number of plays. Applying daily or monthly K-factor into the algorithm should allow you to avoid the situation where just more intensive playing leads to the higher ranking.
Then the question is just about rating of bots.

Surik
long term council member of the national chess federation

ruloi

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2017, 01:49:17 PM »

Elo rating system has K-factor that takes into account the number of plays. Applying daily or monthly K-factor into the algorithm should allow you to avoid the situation where just more intensive playing leads to the higher ranking.
Then the question is just about rating of bots.

Surik
long term council member of the national chess federation

That sounds about right, we'll check how it would play out in our current system. Thanks for the feedback!

 

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